California Gov. Gavin Newsom defended his state’s sanctuary policies and said California still works with federal immigration authorities on violent offenders during a sit-down with conservative commentator Ben Shapiro on Newsom’s podcast.

Shapiro asked the Democratic governor why California maintains sanctuary protections and said the approach draws more illegal immigrants to the state.

“It seems to me that there have been a number of deportations from red states, right, where there are governors and localities working with ICE,” Shapiro said, referring to Immigration and Customs Enforcement. “California is a sanctuary state, which makes it much more difficult for local law enforcement to hand over information to ICE about deportation status. What’s the purpose of that?”

He noted that Newsom described himself as pragmatic, then asked: “Wouldn’t best policy be to cooperate with ICE in the vast majority of cases? So instead of ICE going to, as you say, hospitals and churches to pick people up, they’d be going to jailhouses.”

Newsom responded that California does cooperate with federal immigration enforcement in certain circumstances.

“That’s exactly what they do in California,” Newsom said. “And we have over 10,000 that I’ve cooperated with since I’ve been governor of California. We work very directly with ICE as it relates to CDCR, state prison. California has cooperated with more ICE transfers probably than any other state in the country. And I vetoed multiple pieces of legislation that have come from my legislature to stop the ability for the state of California to do that.”

Newsom said that when it comes to violent criminals and felons, California cooperates with ICE.

Shapiro then asked what makes California a “sanctuary state.”

Newsom pointed to Senate Bill 54, noting that it is a policy framework established under former Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown. That law prohibits “state and local law enforcement agencies, including school police and security departments, from using money or personnel to investigate, interrogate, detain, detect, or arrest persons for immigration enforcement purposes.”

However, that law includes an exemption for the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation (CDCR), which Newsom cited various times in the podcast as working with ICE.

The governor’s office told The Epoch Times that the law does not impede criminal investigations or the sharing of information about an individual’s criminal history and that state law prioritizes public safety by allowing coordination with ICE for people who are convicted of, or who are facing credible charges regarding, violent or serious felonies or other crimes that threaten public safety.

CDCR notifies ICE of all foreign-born people in their custody and coordinates with ICE when ICE requests cooperation on the release of noncitizens, Newsom’s office added.

The governor said that immigration enforcement should remain a federal responsibility and that local agencies should not be consigned to federal priorities.

Shapiro asked whether the state should tell localities to cooperate more with ICE.

Newsom said limiting routine immigration enforcement can make people more willing to report crimes, seek medical care, and send kids to school without fear of being turned over to immigration authorities. Newsom said he sees it as a public safety and public health argument, not a political one.

“So it’s the tool of pragmatism because of the complete abject failure of the federal government,” Newsom said. “Sanctuary policy is unnecessary if we had comprehensive immigration reform and we had a federal response that was adequate to the task.”

Shapiro said California’s sanctuary policies have acted as a magnet for illegal immigration, and he said the cost has become “extraordinarily burdensome,” pointing to California’s decision to freeze enrollment of illegal immigrants in a state health program to save money.

In 2025, California moved to end free health care for most illegal immigrant adults, citing pressures from a projected revenue shortfall that has pushed the state’s budget deficit to $12 billion. The changes are expected to save California approximately $5.4 billion by 2028, according to estimates from Newsom’s office.

California’s Democratic leaders initially projected $2.7 billion in annual costs for providing health care to illegal immigrants, but the figure has since surged to roughly $9.5 billion, according to Republican lawmakers, contributing significantly to the state’s widening budget shortfall.

During the podcast, Newsom rejected the idea that sanctuary policies are driving migration into California, citing Florida and Texas as “proof points” because, he said, both states lack sanctuary policies but have seen “huge” increases in illegal immigrant populations.

A 2025 Pew Research study found that the six states with “the largest unauthorized immigrant populations in 2023” were California (2.3 million), Texas (2.1 million), Florida (1.6 million), New York (825,000), New Jersey (600,000), and Illinois (550,000).

Newsom said the health care question is separate from sanctuary policy, arguing that California’s approach is about how to handle people who have lived in the United States for years, how to deal with mixed-status families, and shifting care from emergency rooms to broader community health. He said that emergency rooms in every state provide compensated care for illegal immigrant patients and that many states cover certain groups such as children and seniors.

Newsom then returned to enforcement and public safety, again saying California “does cooperate with ICE,” particularly with regard to “dangerous criminals,” and repeating his claim that the state has coordinated more than 10,000 transfers. He also said he disagrees with calls from prominent Democrats to abolish ICE.

Newsom said sanctuary policies do not increase crime; he said that “sanctuary jurisdictions have lower crime rates ... than non-sanctuary jurisdictions.” Shapiro asked Newsom what the basis for that claim was and said that limiting local cooperation with federal immigration authorities can make communities less safe.

On Jan 15, after the episode, Shapiro’s outlet, The Daily Wire, published an article disputing Newsom’s claim that California “cooperates with ICE” and his reference to “10,000” transfers.

The Daily Wire piece cited the Center for Immigration Studies as saying California accounted for more than 13,000 ICE detainers from Oct. 1, 2022, to Feb. 6, 2025.

In response to questions from The Epoch Times, Newsom’s office said the number Newsom cited in the podcast referred to instances since 2019—when he took office—in which the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation coordinated with ICE to transfer an incarcerated person into federal custody, citing data from the CDCR.

The office said the Center for Immigration Studies figure and CDCR’s coordination figure are “different data sets,” describing the former number as covering ICE detainers statewide from 2022 to 2025, while CDCR’s coordination data are specific to transfers from state prisons.

Tom Ozimek contributed to this report.