[RUSH TRANSCRIPT BELOW]Taiwan faces millions of cyberattacks and intrusion attempts every day, as well as a dizzying onslaught of disinformation from Beijing.

There are few people who understand what Taiwan is really up against better than Taiwanese legislator Wang Ting-yu, a leader in the Taiwanese Parliament’s Foreign Affairs and National Defense Committee.

He’s been sanctioned three times by Beijing and repeatedly threatened for speaking out.

In this episode, he reveals Taiwan’s three-step strategy to withstand the Chinese Communist Party’s psychological onslaught.

Winning the battle for truth, he believes, is imperative to preserving the life of any democratic nation.

And he also breaks down the importance of this tiny island nation. Taiwan produces two-thirds of the world’s semiconductors—and nearly all of the advanced ones—but its importance stretches far beyond this single product. Wang details Taiwan’s strategic position, its role in critical supply chains, and its role as a frontier of human freedom.

Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

RUSH TRANSCRIPT

Jan Jekielek:

Wang Ting-Yu, so good to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Wang Ting-Yu:

It’s my honor to have this opportunity with you.

Mr. Jekielek:

So, you’ve repeatedly been the chair of Taiwan’s Foreign and National Defense Affairs Committee, and you’ve watched Beijing apply pressure from many different angles onto your country: military exercises, cognitive warfare, diplomatic isolation, economic coercion. You’ve talked about all these things. Among these methods, what do you think is the most dangerous?

Mr. Ting-Yu:

An example from my family: When my son was three years old, he is now 24. Every day when we had our breakfast in the morning, we could hear thunder-like noise, the engine start, air fighters. Even my son, when he was two or three years old, he would say, oh, the PLA [People’s Liberation Army] comes to harass again. We have been under this kind of threat for decades. It’s our daily life.Dangerous threat. Air fighters, destroyers, missiles, drones—those kinds of military, of course, are real and very disturbing.

However, disinformation from inside, our psychological defense line, is the most important thing. Autocracies, communism, they always use fake news, disinformation, those twisted news polluted by their intention to penetrate your society. They make your younger generation, through TikToks, something like that, through some kind of social media, try to divide your society. Sometimes we just support different parties, but through that disinformation, people don’t trust your government. That kind of disinformation sabotages this society, divides your society into pieces. I think it’s the most dangerous thing caused by China’s communists.

Mr. Jekielek:

I think probably Americans and Canadians—I am Canadian—could learn a lot from this.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Democracy, our society, is an open society. We value freedom of speech, we value diversification. That’s our advantage. But sometimes those autocracies, such as Iran, China, North Korea, they control all the concepts, control all the speech, control all the rights. So when they try to influence your society—Canada, or the United States, or Taiwan—we are democracies. People’s votes are going to influence your policymaking process. So they try to influence your cognition, then you can influence your behavior to vote. 

So they try to influence your awareness. They accuse people of being racist, these people of color hate white people. Democrats hate Republicans. In Taiwan, in the past, it was just you support different parties. No big deal. We are friends, we are families, we are neighbors. But now we hate each other. So how to make your people realize what is right? What is wrong? It’s the most challenging situation for a democratic society.

Mr. Jekielek:

This is one of the things that at Epoch Times, this is actually our purpose: to try to present good, clear information to the people in whatever country we’re operating in.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Yes. The Epoch Times, you provide a clean internet. Information comes from different kinds of sources. It’s okay. Sometimes you look from this angle. Look from that angle. We are different. We don’t have to agree with each other, but we can work together. We can get along with each other. But what is a twist? Twisted information or disinformation or fact? Or to try to exaggerate the differences. Then differences become disputes, and disputes become conflicts. 

For example, we mentioned military corruption, military threats. We need modern equipment. We need all kinds of major battle tanks. We need a switchblade, a drone, something like that. But if your awareness is twisted by disinformation, you don’t trust your country, you’re not loyal to your own country. You worry about the soldier next to you. We have different races. We support different parties. I don’t have to fight for you. 

In the past, we fought for our country. We defended our families. But now, twisted information, disinformation influences your recognition. You think we are from a different party; we hate each other. Then, even if you have modern equipment, those kinds of soldiers cannot defend your country. In school, on the street, if people lose trust in the system, lose trust in democracy, and lose love for this country, this land, just because of disinformation. Even if you have millions of soldiers, you have thousands of policemen, you cannot keep your society stitched together. 

I’m not talking about purifying the information. I try to remind democracy, the modern world, how to educate our next generation, how to help our civilians, our people, to distinguish what is correct. Oh, this information provided by CCTV [China Central Television], this information provided by a foreign government, and especially it’s an autocratic government. We need to let our people realize how to distinguish the background of all kinds of information.

Mr. Jekielek:

So, what you’re talking about is an education for people to be able to have critical thinking and be able to understand the value of different kinds of information.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Yes. Now technology has improved a lot. Deepfake through AI [Artificial Intelligence]. I can even create your image, your voice to speak the most terrible words you cannot imagine through technology. So how to distinguish what’s real, I think it’s quite important, not only to our generation, these adults, but also to our next generation. And a lot of fraud happened due to this kind of information. A lot of countries on the street become chaotic, trying to attack each other because of this kind of information. So if millions of people think it’s true, but actually it’s false, that will be a problem. 

In Taiwan, during COVID-19, our former Prime Minister Su Tseng-chang built an SOP [Standard Operating Procedure]. Three steps. First, once disinformation occurs, those ministries related to this disinformation have to respond to it within 60 minutes. If you are slower than 60 minutes, this disinformation spreads around, and the damage happens. If disinformation occurred, the ministry administration needs to respond to it within 60 minutes. The response, which tries to provide correct information, must be humorous and fun. Our research and study show that information spreads faster if it’s funny.

The third thing is that you need to locate the origin, the very first moment disinformation occurred. Before that, we need to verify what disinformation we need to deal with. That’s the key. First, this disinformation must be fake. Second, it must damage public interest. Third, it must be intentional. Then we go through this procedure. 

During COVID-19, disinformation occurred almost at the same time in Japan, the United States, and Taiwan. They said that toilet paper was running out in convenience stores. Information came. They rushed in, went to the supermarket, and tried to grab as much toilet paper as possible. It’s disinformation. It damages public interest. And this information comes from China. 

So my government made a response. They drew a picture, a photo showing a cartoon person leaning on a window, showing their buttocks. It said, how many buttocks do you have? You don’t need that much toilet paper. And this picture is very funny. It spread three times faster than the disinformation, which then eased this tension. Then, we located the original information that came from China. 

So, we need to deal with this carefully. We don’t want to damage our freedom, people’s freedom of speech. So, we need to deal with real disinformation based on and according to law and through these three procedures, and respond as fast as possible. And after we ease the tension caused by disinformation, then we try to locate where it is from and how to deal with that. So, in Taiwan, we have an old saying: if you get sick long enough, you can be a good doctor. 

So, Taiwan, we are the world’s number one under cyberattack disinformation. We are the number one. Every day, there are around 22.5 million cyberattack malware attempts per hour, every day. So, we are severely under cyberattack. As survivors, we know how to deal with that, and we are willing to share our experiences and our lessons with our democracy friends.

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Mr. Jekielek:

Sometimes, even in democratic countries, governments themselves peddle disinformation because they have some agenda, right? And then that will undermine a genuine effort like yours because people say, oh, that’s just the government doing its own disinformation, right? A very difficult question because you’re absolutely right. Those tools of these farms and all of that have a very negative impact on societies and are very divisive, like you explained. And at the same time, I worry that our own governments learn the bad lesson from that in many cases, right? Then really no one knows what’s true or not.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Sometimes the world is not black and white. It’s not easy to tell what is true, what is false. I agree with that.

Mr. Jekielek:

That’s why I think you have to decide, well, I find this to be an honest source of information, right? This is why we’re trying, that’s our effort to be an honest source of information that anybody can come to. And of course, it’s our perspective. Every source of information has some viewpoint.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

You have made a lot of contributions to this issue, but it cannot depend on one media. It depends on everyone. So, my feeling is, you know, sometimes disinformation causes damage more serious than autocracy in a democracy country. Why? Because in a democracy country, we have parties, different parties. So, sometimes this disinformation damages that party. Your opposite party, do you have that kind of courage to say, no, it’s not? Or, oh, this disinformation damaged my competitors. So try to exaggerate it. Try to make it worse. 

So in a democracy society, we have a mechanism, check and balance. Administration needs to be checked and balanced by representative mechanisms, representative branches. So executive branches, you cannot do whatever you want. You need to get your budget, your law passed by people-elected representatives. Checks and balances. And this competition tries to win votes from people. In an autocracy, they don’t have this. Xi Jinping is the super king of China, whatever he says.

So, in an open society, in a democracy, because we have party competition, when disinformation occurs, especially related to government, political projects, or perhaps ethics and races, sometimes this party can gain an advantage from that kind of disinformation. Then, what’s your choice? To disclose that your list is disinformation or try to help the disinformation destroy your competitors? It’s not easy. In the States, but also in Taiwan, we are facing this.

Mr. Jekielek:

You’re saying you have to do the moral thing. You’re saying you have to practice your morality. 

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Yes. And I do believe democracy is the best system we have.

Mr. Jekielek:

You know, there’s, I think it was Winston Churchill that said democracy is a terrible system except for all the other systems.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Yes.

Mr. Jekielek:

Something like that. Agreed. I hope I got it right.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

There is no perfect system. But the democracy system can let people make decisions on their own. You are free based on the knowledge and information you have. That’s why the CCP [Chinese Communist Party] and all the autocratic countries try to pollute your information system. They think that’s the best strategy to counter democracy. 

And democracy can help people, can heal people on their own. Because there is disinformation, then the correct information occurred. At the same time, because it’s a democracy, everybody can say anything you want. When somebody says something terrible, when some media provide stupid news, then some media, like your media, like Epoch Times, you can provide your counter-information. 

Then who is the judge? The people. I have 100 per cent freedom and access to get all different kinds of information. Then I can make my own judgment. In an autocracy, the only information you can have is what your kin allows you to read. You don’t have the opportunity to make your own judgment. And if we can make our own judgment, even if this system is full of chaos compared with the other system, it is still the best way we can live.

Mr. Jekielek:

There have been many ways in which the Chinese Communist Party has kind of pushed itself into Taiwanese society, including even owning some of the media or having a lot of control over some of the media here. So there’s also that aspect. It’s not just social media; there are kind of deep connections that it’s developed.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Some media have the title of media, but it’s a kind of propaganda for some certain entity. And sometimes we don’t like communism; they are willing to spend a bunch of money to damage the other country, but they don’t want to use that kind of money to help their own people have bread, healthcare, something like that. Why? Because staying in power is the most important thing for an autocracy. Democracy is how to keep your people happy; it’s the most important thing. Try to please all kinds of voters. Try to help my communities because I need your votes next time. So it’s a different philosophy. 

Autocracy tries to keep itself in power no matter how many lives are sacrificed, no matter if the economy goes into a recession. No, I need to spend the money to protect my own power, sabotage my threats, government, try to divide the United States, make their society chaotic because then I can protect. My position, my power. 

Inside that system, in China, for example, no one dared to provide a second opinion to your leaders. Everyone tried to guess what you want. I want to please you. I only provide the answer you want because if I dare to provide a true answer or a second opinion, I’m not only risking my career, I’m risking my real life. Everyone tries to please the king, the superpower. And people can be sacrificed. The economy can be sacrificed. Social welfare can be sacrificed. So they are willing to use money, using their budget, to cause trouble for the other country.

But democracy is not that way. If you are a city councilman, you are a federal congressman, or like me, I’m a legislator. The only thing I think is my top priority is to make my people live in happiness. They need a job. They need a bridge across the river. They need a good environment in school. They need their country to be protected. So that’s why I wonder about some of my colleagues, so pro-China, they try to cut our self-defense budget. People don’t like that. 

What my people want is that they want their kids, their grandsons, to still have the freedom to make their own choices. That’s the core spirit of democracy. Not trying to please someone higher than you. Not trying to make your supervisor happy. Not trying to make yourself wealthy or make your own life better. No. Democracy, the true spirit, is when you become a public servant. Your public, make your people live a happy, safe life and keep this kind of happiness for the next generation. That’s how we do things in Taiwan.

Mr. Jekielek:

You mentioned this defense budget that was passed recently, and it’s a lot lower than maybe expected. So, explain to me more about that situation and the impact of that on the relationship with the United States.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

We need to talk about this from a bigger picture. In 2013, Xi Jinping became China’s leader, the president of the CCP. He increased investment in military expenses every year, increasing 7 per cent. And in 2026, China’s expense in military affairs will be beyond one trillion U.S. dollars. It’s huge money. And they build destroyers, amphibious boats, all kinds of aircraft, missiles. 

And Taiwan is the frontier. We are under a kind of giant threat, and Taiwan is not the only one. China keeps increasing its military budget and military activities, including gray zone coercion toward the Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, and Korea. In February 2025 and February 2026, China even sent its destroyers to sail to Australia and conduct live-fire exercises there. 

So, it’s aggressive and provocative, and they try to create their own new norm. They don’t follow international regulations. They don’t respect international law. They don’t respect the sovereignty owned by different countries. They enter Philippine territorial waters, harass Taiwan’s territorial waters, and send their aircraft to harass Japan’s airspace. This kind of threat keeps increasing. 

My personal belief is that protecting my country is our own responsibility. No one should rely on someone else’s shoulder. It’s our own responsibility. However, if you realize the value and importance of Taiwan, lending Taiwan a hand is helping the world. If you look at the map, Taiwan is at the center of the First Island Chain. It has strategic importance. 

Whoever has Taiwan can control Japan. Whoever controls Taiwan can control the West Pacific and the Philippine Sea. If the CCP occupies Taiwan, Guam Island and Okinawa will lose their importance. The United States would need to move its Guam Island defense line backward to Hawaii. 

So, Taiwan is a very important strategic position. All vital transportation to Japan goes through Taiwan. And 51 percent of the world’s cargo ships pass through Taiwan. So, once a military conflict occurs in the Taiwan Strait, it’s not only damaging Taiwan; it’s going to destroy the global economy. So, this is the first importance. Second, Taiwan plays a very critical, very important, vital role in the supply chain, not only for semiconductors. 

Of course, Taiwan produces almost 100 per cent of the world’s advanced chips and AI chips. 96 per cent of the world’s advanced chips are produced here in Taiwan. And 60 per cent of average semiconductors are manufactured here locally in Taiwan. 

Not only that, if you look at all kinds of machinery, precision machines, and low-orbit components, even Tesla cannot run without Taiwan. Taiwan plays an important role in the global supply chain, and if you want something reliable without the China factor, the portion will be higher. 

So, to defend my own country, to protect my family, is our own responsibility. But if you realize the importance of Taiwan, helping Taiwan is not only helping Taiwanese people, these nice people, but helping the world. TSMC [Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company] is a famous factory now. Some people think, oh, TSMC makes too much money. 

But TSMC provides fundamental chips, and we in Taiwan are good at that. Once TSMC makes $1 in Taiwan, it creates $3.6 in the United States. Because when we transport those TSMC chips to the United States, they become final goods; they become a refrigerator, a washing machine, a satellite, aviation equipment, toys—all tools need chips. And when Taiwan provides those chips at a reasonable price to the world, and most go to the United States, it becomes a kind of value-added product. So it adds 3.6 times its value. 

So why does Taiwan matter? Because of the supply chain, because of its strategic position, and one more thing I think is the most important, beyond all the cost or monetary value: Taiwan is a frontier of democracy, human rights, freedom of religion—all the values we believe in. Once Taiwan is invaded by the CCP, or military conflict occurs in this region, it’s going to be a disaster. 

Looking at the bigger general picture, my president, William Lai, made a public commitment: We are going to increase our defense budget beyond 3 per cent of our GDP [Gross Domestic Product] and to 5 percent by 2029. We need to increase our self-defense spending to show our determination to protect our own country, to stabilize regional peace and stability. And to show our determination and to increase, to modernize our military defense capability. So that’s what we are doing now. 

Since last year, my government has increased our annual defense budget to nearly 600 billion Taiwan dollars. We think it’s not enough. So, we introduced a special budget, an eight-year plan. We are going to introduce and increase a 1.25 trillion special defense budget.

However, in a democracy, you need to communicate with the opposition party. So, our opposition parties, the KMT [Kuomintang] and the TPP [Taiwan People’s Party], don’t like this. They claim they want to delete it, or cut it to zero. And the Taiwanese mainstream, Taiwanese people, don’t like it.

Mr. Jekielek:

They want to cut the budget to zero or the increase to zero?

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Cut it to zero. We don’t need a special budget. This $1.25 trillion—they think we don’t need that special budget. Taiwanese people say, no matter which party we support, the poll shows people support a special defense budget. And those opposition parties, they feel the pressure from our people. So, in the international atmosphere, they think Taiwan should be responsible for its own security. 

The United States, the Trump administration, urged the opposition party to be reasonable. Don’t delete your own defense budget. If you don’t value your own security, nobody will value your security more than you. So, our opposition party, under pressure from our allies and from inside Taiwan—this is most important—all the polls show people don’t like that.

Next week, our government is going to introduce a new special budget, trying to rescue those budget-led elites. So we need to increase our annual defense budget. With this, our defense budget is going to be very close; we are beyond 4 per cent of our GDP. And if you include Coast Guard expenses and our societal resilience readiness budget into account, that will be close to 5 per cent of our GDP. My president, William Lai, promised to reach that point by 2029. Next year, 2027, we will be quite close to what we committed to, to defend our own country.

Mr. Jekielek:

Some countries are creating greater cooperation with Communist China. For example, my home country, Canada, recently has officially been pursuing a strategic relationship, right? The policy has changed quite a bit recently. What do you think of that kind of approach?

Mr. Ting-Yu:

We are not kids from kindergarten. We can live with you, the CCP’s friends, and we are still close friends. Who is naive? Who is childish? The CCP, they are. China is the only one to forbid their friends to make friends with Taiwan. We never object to that. Yes, the United States, Canada, Japan, all countries, of course, you can be friends with China. 

It’s no problem with Taiwan, and we still can be friends. We are not naive. We know sometimes some countries, because of commercial interest, sometimes because of security issues, sometimes for personal reasons, they want to be close with China. We are fine.

Mr. Jekielek:

Well, it’s okay, but I guess what I’m asking you is, do you think it’s a good idea?

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Of course, it is not a good idea. It is a phenomenon. But this phenomenon has two sides, and has two faces. Some countries try to get engaged, close partnership with China, and they try to steal what you can do. They will steal your technology. They will try to dump their mass products into your market, try to replace your original supply chain. They try to encourage their people to enter your society, but those people cannot enjoy democratic life. They have deep fear, controlled by the Beijing government. 

So there are several countries. Honduras stopped its diplomatic relationship with Taiwan a couple of years ago. And they believe in China’s commitment, such a big country, commitment, billions of investment to their country. Major income from shrimp, their agricultural products, China doesn’t fulfill their commitment. 40 per cent of their farmers lost their jobs. And the worst part is cheap products from China get into their domestic market and destroy their original economic ecology. They suffer from that. 

So, early this year, countless nationwide elections, all pro-China candidates, everyone, all 100 per cent pro-China parliament failed in their election. And those pro-democracy close to the United States, and the major two candidates say if they win their presidency, they are going to restart their diplomatic relationship with Taiwan. 

Those two take more than 80 percent of the vote. You can make friends with China, fine. But if you abandon all the values you believe in, you abandon democracy, you abandon your friends, you abandon the trust, just want to get benefit from China, the outcome will be very miserable. It’s not a smart move. So Canada is a big country, a G7 country with global issues.  

But if you put the Canadian economy close to China, look at China, more than 25 per cent  of their younger generation out of employees. Their real estate, the top three companies, IPO [initial public offering] companies, collapsed. Their cash flow stopped. Their tier-two countries, tier-two cities cannot afford to pay the teachers, public employees, and public service wages and salaries, and they keep increasing their expenses in military needs. So, that kind of country, if you put your country too close to that kind of society, I think it’s not a smart decision.

Mr. Jekielek:

Beijing has put you on a Taiwan hardliner sanctions list for talking about such things. Presumably, there are maybe some other reasons. How do you respond to that?

Mr. Ting-Yu:

The sanctions, to me, I got that medal three times. One, they announced that me and Rubio almost at the same time, but they changed Rubio’s Chinese name, then Rubio can enter China freely. It’s a joke. Some people will say, oh, I got sanctioned by China. It’s a medal of honor. Yes, we can say that. 

But what I would try to say, it’s a mark of an autocracy, how they treat human beings. I support my own country. I support my kids; they have their own right to make their own choice, and I got sanctions. Why? It’s evidence of an autocracy. 

When China imposed sanctions on Secretary of State Rubio, it’s not Rubio’s business. What Rubio has done, Rubio supports democracy allies. Then they impose sanctions on Rubio, and now they sanction him because he’s a state secretary, too big. I cannot, I can avoid that. So that is a mark, that is evidence of how autocracy deals with affairs related to human beings.

Mr. Jekielek:

Basically, you’re saying they just have this arbitrary decision-making. This is a mark of this arbitrary decision-making of an autocracy.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Yes. Sometimes I think it’s their weakness. Yang, maybe you will be on the name list of sanctions soon.

Mr. Jekielek:

I hope not.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Maybe.

Mr. Jekielek:

Never good to be on those lists, at least.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

It’s OK. Trust me, it’s OK. But for example, when they put your name on the list to impose sanctions, that means you are doing something positive for human rights. Positive to those precious values we believe in. When your name is on the list, the CCP imposes sanctions on you; that means they are afraid of you. 

They can do nothing about you, they can just say, we sanction you. You cannot enter China. We try to do something, harass your relatives in China. We will try to harass your business or your friends’ business in China. These things because they are afraid of you. What you have done, what you believe jeopardizes their power.

Mr. Jekielek:

But you are much closer to China here, just across the strait, than I am. Are you not worried?

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Actually, I can share a secret with you. They imposed sanctions on me three times, and they even sent gangsters to try to harass me and my family. My kids’ lives were in danger. Armed policemen stood in front of my house for a long time. That’s the price. When you try to do something right, you know, to choose a route to do something right, it’s never an easy thing. Sometimes being obedient to those monsters, being obedient to those dictators, your life will be easier, but it’s not right. I won’t say it’s easy. Under that kind of threat, look at your kids, three, five, seven-years-old. It’s not easy.

But the only thing you can blame is the CCP. We have done nothing wrong. I was a city councilman. Now I’m a legislator. When China imposed sanctions on me, you know, in Taiwan, we emphasized transparency. So all the persons or companies, when they donate contributions to my campaign, I need to honestly file the report to our institute. That will be public. 

So, China, based on those materials, as they call them, says, we know you are supporting someone named Wang Ting-Yu. We impose sanctions on him. If you keep supporting him, you will be facing some harsh results. They’re doing some of this kind, trying to intimidate my supporters. This is a crime. So, I’m happy now.We have more colleagues join my line. Dozens of people, we are all on the list. But I think soon evil will be gone.

Mr. Jekielek:

Well, Wang Ting-Yu, it’s such a pleasure to have had you on.

Mr. Ting-Yu:

Now it’s my honor to have you here. I hope you can come to Taiwan more often, please.

This interview has been partially edited for clarity and brevity.