[RUSH TRANSCRIPT BELOW] In 2015, a whistleblower came forward to The Epoch Times to share an unthinkable story.

Years before, while a resident doctor at one of China’s largest military hospitals, he was summoned one day with other doctors for a “secret military mission.” They were brought before a 17-year-old young soldier—bound so tightly that the ropes cut into his flesh—and ordered to pin the boy down and extract his kidneys and eyes.

The young soldier had gotten on the wrong side of his army supervisor, and while imprisoned in military jail, military command discovered that he was a blood and tissue match with a high-ranking superior in need of an organ transplant.

“When I looked at him, I saw fear in his eyes. His eyelids were moving. He was alive,” recounted the whistleblower Dr. George Zheng.

His testimony is featured in the harrowing documentary “State Organs,” directed by Peabody Award-winning filmmaker Raymond Zhang.

A powerful film that exposes the brutal reality of China’s forced organ harvesting industry, the documentary follows two families’ decades-long search for their disappeared loved ones. It’s a story of tragedy and brutal inhumanity, but also faith and redemption.

It seems the film hit such a nerve in Beijing that theaters in Taiwan received threatening letters and even bomb threats ahead of film screenings.

In this special episode, I sat down with Zhang to hear about his incredible journey of making this film and what he uncovered along the way.

“State Organs“ is now streaming on Apple TV, Amazon Prime Video, YouTube, etc. 

Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.

RUSH TRANSCRIPT

Raymond Zhang, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Raymond Zhang:

Thank you for having me, Jan.

Mr. Jekielek:

So you actually have made three documentaries. Two of them have been focused on forced organ harvesting. The first, of course, was Human Harvest. It won the Peabody Award, which made it the darling of the Canada Media Fund. And then it also had this incredible reach through an online film festival where, you know, literally millions saw it.

The second film was particularly close to my heart. It’s the film Avenues of Escape. And that’s because the film is about this underground railroad that was bringing Chinese prisoners of conscience out from China through the Golden Triangle to Bangkok so they could get UN refugee status and get resettled in free countries. So tell me briefly how going through the process of making those first two documentaries inspired State Organs.

Mr. Zhang:

In 2006, when I first heard about the organ harvesting, I was shocked but not that surprised. Born and raised in mainland China, I knew the CCP had killed about 60 million to 80 million Chinese people over the past 70 years. So I thought I already knew those things. But in 2016, when I first met Dr. George Zheng, I was utterly shocked.The degree of the cruelty of the organ harvesting is beyond imagination.

The boy killed in this film for his organs was a 17-year-old army soldier. Since he was under 18, his parents spent about 10,000 Chinese Yuan to get him into the army and hoped he could get a better job opportunity in the future. Because he was from the countryside, he didn’t know how to please or bribe his supervisor. He got in conflict with his officer and was put into a military jail. His blood type matched that of a high-level military officer. So the army decided to kill this boy for his two kidneys and one eyeball. His parents probably never knew what happened to their kid.

Dr. George Zheng:

One doctor asked me to take his eyeballs. When I looked at him, I saw fear in his eyes. His eyelids were moving. He was alive.

Mr. Zhang:

Dr. George Zheng told me it’s so demonic. The position cuts into the body. The blood springs out. And when he took out the kidney, the vessels were still pulsating and trembling.  A normal person in that situation would go insane, overwhelmed with emotion. A couple of times, he rushed into the washroom, turned on the faucet, and cried down there for a long, long time. The interview stopped on day one because of emotional breakdown.

But after the interview, he told me with tears in his eyes he had been living in extreme fear every day. Over the past 17 years, he has been scared day and night since there was a secret military operation. He always felt he was being hunted; someone was chasing him, attempting to assassinate him. But after the interview, to his surprise, this omnipresent fear and never-ending pressure suddenly vanished, as if his life and soul were relieved and redeemed. He felt like he had found a form of redemption.

When I looked into Dr. George Zheng’s eyes, I saw a mixture of complex emotions: fear, worry, but also courage and determination. Until today, Dr. George Zheng is the only military surgeon who was directly involved in organ harvesting and has the moral courage to stand up and expose this most secret state crime. His courage and determination deeply touched me.

Mr. Jekielek:

Something that was really incredible in the film was that you actually have this, what I call, a voice from history, you know, from 2002. Yun Zhang, you actually have her original voice, her testament.

Mr. Zhang:

It was finding the original recording of Yun that inspired me to start the film at the very beginning. This film features the original recordings of Yun right before she was kidnapped by the police and eventually forcibly disappeared in police custody. After her husband was killed while in detention, she shared his story and distributed flyers in Qingdao, China. This made her a target for the police who hunted her down.

At about 2 a.m. on April 19, 2001, she left messages for her sister in Toronto, Canada, recounting her family’s plight. Her speech was somewhat hurried as she felt that her situation was extremely dangerous because the policemen were outside her door. In the recording, she said her family’s experience was only the tip of the iceberg in the persecution in China and hoped the international community could help to end this persecution. This was her last voice left to the world, and it was her only wish.

Mr. Jekielek:

The film also features a policeman who participated in this persecution. Tell me about him.

Mr. Zhang:

Sure. A police officer on guard was deeply moved by the steadfast faith of the Falun Gong practitioner.

Speaker A:

We were threatening him. We were threatening him with violence. We had to go through a week of interrogation. He had been injured countless times. He was also beaten with a stick. At that time, the provincial police department of Liaoning sent two secret departments.

One was a military doctor from the Liberation Army, the Army of Shiyang, the Army of Lu, and one from the University of the Second Army to send him to a mental hospital and then do a set of things. At that time, we each took a handgun and stood next to the battle port.

There was no anesthesia. The surgical knife was in the chest and the blood was spilt out. The blood was spilt out. That woman yelled out loud and said, “Falun Dafa is good. You can kill me alone. You can’t kill hundreds of millions of people for their faith.”

The surgeon was a little hesitant. He looked at me and our leader. The leader nodded, and he continued. I couldn’t believe him. But after seeing the victim, their courage was so shocking. No matter how strong a person is, when he is in a state of unbearable pain, when he is pulled away from his body, his heart is beating and he is bleeding. At this time, I still say that the Dharma is good. When I think of his moment, I feel sorry for him. I can’t save them.

Mr. Zhang:

He felt profound respect for them. His reflection and repentance brought him redemption. The female practitioner who was killed held on to her belief until her last moment, awakening the conscience of many, similar to how Jesus saved two thieves beside him before his crucifixion. For those involved in the persecution, as long as there is a trace of conscience, there’s still hope for them. The weakening of their conscience becomes the process of saving themselves.

Mr. Jekielek:

Raymond, of course, you know that I’m completely with you in this, trying to expose more and more people, especially people who are making decisions in our societies about this issue. And we’ve already seen how the lack of action from free countries around this issue, when the Falun Gong were initially targeted over decades, that it seems to have now shifted also towards the Uyghur populations as millions of people were incarcerated in the camps. So I think you have a really good point in saying that this is something that needs to be dealt with quickly.

Let’s talk about a couple of the characters. I found this documentary particularly powerful in that you get to know a few people very well that are connected to the issue. And of course, Michelle is living in Canada with her kids, and it’s her sister Yun who has disappeared in China. Well, so tell me a little bit about how you found them and tell me a bit about them and their story.

Mr. Zhang:

This is the journey of the weakening of the victim’s family. Michelle Zhang didn’t know how to explain what’s going on to her children. If the country and the society can do this, what hope is left? She saw no hope. Michelle was once an atheist. She didn’t understand the energy practice, but gradually came to understand it, and eventually, she embraced the spiritual practice. This is the journey of awakening where she found hope through despair.

Mr. Jekielek:

And then we have her father, Jim Zhang.

Mr. Zhang:

Professor Jim Zhang, a victim’s father, was a military officer who served the CCP for most of his life. Spending 18 years searching for his missing daughter, going to various government agencies, police stations, and labor camps, he was met only with evasion, cover-ups, intimidation, and eventually a death threat. During these 18 years, he went from fully trusting the CCP to recognizing its evil and lies. Along the way, they uncovered a highly secret state crime and a grassroots movement that inspired the nation and then the world.

Speaker B:

Kaohsiung City Council has received a bomb threat regarding its plans to organize a screening of state organs, a documentary on China’s government-run organ harvesting operations. The threat stated that several explosives had been placed in the city council building and would explode at 5 p.m. on Tuesday if the event wasn’t publicly canceled.

Mr. Jekielek:

So, Raymond, explain to me some of the challenges that you faced with screening this film, especially in Taiwan. I understand there were bomb threats, death threats, and a multitude of challenges.

Mr. Zhang:

To this day, there are more than 120 death threat letters in Taiwan. When I heard the news, my first concern was the safety of the audience. After the local police conducted a thorough investigation, they found no explosives in the cinema. This became clear as all those emails were sent via VPN from outside China. This confirmed that this is a typical intimidation tactic used by the Chinese Communist Party, aimed at disrupting the normal life of the Taiwanese people.

Speaker B:

City Council Speaker Kang Yu-cheng says the screening will continue as scheduled, adding that she is not scared of the threats. A meeting will be convened to ensure security on the day of the event.

Mr. Jekielek:

So what was the reaction of the people?

Mr. Zhang:

Taiwan news agencies believe that this film hits the most sensitive nerve of the CCP. Some legislators believe that this film is an exposé of the most secret state crime in China.

Mr. Jekielek:

So from what I understand, even the Taiwanese president actually received threats as a result of showing this film. Can you clarify for me why?

Mr. Zhang:

Here’s a story from Taiwan. When we held a press conference in the Legislative Yuan in Taipei, a legislator said with emotion, “In 2006, two young people in this very same room held a press conference to expose this crime of organ harvesting. And 18 years later, these two young people became Taiwan’s president and vice president.”

Lai Ching-te: 

In response to the PRC [People’s Republic of China] government’s escalating persecution and unlawful imprisonment of Falun Gong practitioners, and the shocking reports of torture, live organ harvesting, and appalling violations of human rights, 52 members of this House have united to sign a motion condemning these atrocities in the strongest possible terms. On behalf of the Legislative Yuan, we call upon international organizations to launch an immediate and independent investigation to expose the truth, stop these crimes, and protect innocent lives.

Mr. Zhang:

The characters in this film symbolize the various roles played by people both in China and around the world during this ongoing genocide. We live in a time where great good and great evil coexist. This page of history will be turned over soon. I hope when we look back, none of us will have any regrets. We all have done what we should and what we could.

Mr. Jekielek:

And so during the film, you actually experienced your own personal transformation. So tell me about that.

Mr. Zhang:

Before producing this film, we had an agreement on the team. We hope all the participants will benefit from the process of producing, distributing, or promoting the film. And how can we achieve that? A Chinese saying goes, art reflects the artist. The work of art often shows the true inner world of the artist. For example, Zhang Daqian, a famous Chinese painter and calligrapher. Before painting the Bodhisattva, he would wash his hands, change clothes nicely, and meditate. And after completing the painting, he would write, “Zhang Daqian, paint with reverence” on the artwork.

With that in mind, I paid close attention to my cultivation of moral character and cultivated the kindness within myself. I feel I have a cleaner and clearer mind. At the same time, I feel the true freedom that every artist dreams of—a true freedom from the inside out. A feeling that I have never experienced before. To my humble understanding, true freedom means being free from sinful desires, being free from complaints, and being free from selfishness. Only then can you be your true self and express yourself freely.

Mr. Jekielek:

That’s an amazing process to go through as you’re making a film. I’m very interested in your own journey that you described, right, of personal redemption. So yes, tell me about that.

Mr. Zhang:

Producing this documentary is also a journey of self-redemption for myself as well. Born and raised in mainland China, I thought I had a clear understanding of the CCP. Despite living overseas for over 20 years, during the production, I can always find the CCP culture in me. So peeling away this CCP culture layer by layer became a process of saving myself and restoring my faith in the divine. As my faith grows stronger, I feel like I am being taken care of and blessed by the above. On the spiritual, and the closer you are to the divine, the safer and happier your life is going to be.

Mr. Jekielek:

Well, Raymond Zhang, it’s such a pleasure to have had you on.

Mr. Zhang:

Thank you very much, Jan.

Mr. Jekielek:

Thank you all for joining Raymond Zhang and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I’m your host, Jan Jekielek. I don’t know if you’ve seen the film State Organs yet or not. But the reason I invited Raymond on the show is because I felt like it really conveyed the horror of what was happening in a meaningful way, in a way that people could accept. And indeed, you know, I’m in the process of publishing a book. It comes out March 17th, Killed to Order in the same vein.

The thing about Raymond, which frankly surprised me, or I guess I wasn’t expecting, is that in our interview, what came out was how he was really living his faith through making the film. And that’s something that I, I guess, deeply appreciate, something that I’m inspired by, and I think lived a little bit as I was writing Killed to Order as well. At killedtoorder.com. If you'd like to pre-order it, it comes out March 17th. It’s my hope that films like State Organs and my book, Kill to Order, will really help us finally end this atrocity, or at the very least, end our complicity in it actually happening.

This interview was partially edited for clarity and brevity.